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Post by Slyster on Dec 14, 2017 19:40:55 GMT
So if this is going to be such a bad thing for all of us.. and it only helps the largest ISP corporations... why did it get repealed?
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Post by Slyster on Dec 15, 2017 12:41:04 GMT
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Post by clayk on Dec 18, 2017 14:58:55 GMT
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Post by clayk on Dec 18, 2017 15:01:53 GMT
If you use more of a product, you should have to pay more for it. Why should the pricing be fixed? Need I remind you, the more government steps into something, the more harm they do and the less good comes of it. The market economy will decide winners and losers, based on the quality and value of their products. The government "fixing it", is them determining who wins and who loses. Need I remind you, Google and Facebook (and other tech giants) have made a ton of money on being able to pay the same as "the little guy", even though those giants use 100x the resources that the little guy uses.
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Post by iannewson on Dec 18, 2017 15:36:45 GMT
That's not what it means. Using more of the bandwidth isn't really the issue. Most ISPs already give users a limit of how much bandwidth they can use in a given month. Normally if you go over this limit your speeds are throttled or you're cut off entirely. Even packages marketed as unlimited bandwidth have limits, which are just described as 'fair use' in this case. It's also not an issue of speed, as users already pay more for a faster package, i.e. 60 Mbps costs more than 20 Mbps. Net neutrality is the principle that internet providers shouldn't prioritise one type of traffic over another. What ending net neutrality means is that your ISP can now charge you not just for bandwidth, but for what you use on the net. For example, you can now expect to see the following kinds of packages show up in addition to prices per bandwidth: - Basic web! $10/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter: $15/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix: $25/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix + 100ms ping for multiplayer games: $35/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix + 25ms ping for multiplayer games: $55/month
Basically they can now charge you for how you use your bandwidth, not just what bandwidth you use. It's as if when buying fuel for your car they could sell you one type of fuel for personal use, and another more expensive sort of fuel if you want to use it for commuting to work.
They could also use this system to target things like illegal torrenting, as now they could attempt to kill both legal and illegal torrenting. I find it unlikely they will do that but will instead simple have a super package which enables torrenting for a silly amount of money. However torrenters always always get round roadblocks imposed on them.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2017 4:31:29 GMT
That's not what it means. Using more of the bandwidth isn't really the issue. Most ISPs already give users a limit of how much bandwidth they can use in a given month. Normally if you go over this limit your speeds are throttled or you're cut off entirely. Even packages marketed as unlimited bandwidth have limits, which are just described as 'fair use' in this case. It's also not an issue of speed, as users already pay more for a faster package, i.e. 60 Mbps costs more than 20 Mbps. Net neutrality is the principle that internet providers shouldn't prioritise one type of traffic over another. What ending net neutrality means is that your ISP can now charge you not just for bandwidth, but for what you use on the net. For example, you can now expect to see the following kinds of packages show up in addition to prices per bandwidth: - Basic web! $10/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter: $15/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix: $25/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix + 100ms ping for multiplayer games: $35/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix + 25ms ping for multiplayer games: $55/month
Basically they can now charge you for how you use your bandwidth, not just what bandwidth you use. It's as if when buying fuel for your car they could sell you one type of fuel for personal use, and another more expensive sort of fuel if you want to use it for commuting to work.
They could also use this system to target things like illegal torrenting, as now they could attempt to kill both legal and illegal torrenting. I find it unlikely they will do that but will instead simple have a super package which enables torrenting for a silly amount of money. However torrenters always always get round roadblocks imposed on them.
Here is what I think will happen.: 1/ The quality of service will go UP! 2/ The speed of the internet In the USA with INCREASE dramatically 3/ Customers have more program and product choices 4/ Customers will have more internet providers 5/ There will be more competition thus prices will get competitive which means LOWER prices for services 6/ High bandwidth stuff like porn movies will cost more. 7/ More control on pirates, spam and scum because of better virus controls. 8/ Distribution laws in the US will ensure fair distribution and prevent large providers from throttling service or cutting service off.
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Post by clayk on Jan 2, 2018 19:09:32 GMT
That's not what it means. Using more of the bandwidth isn't really the issue. Most ISPs already give users a limit of how much bandwidth they can use in a given month. Normally if you go over this limit your speeds are throttled or you're cut off entirely. Even packages marketed as unlimited bandwidth have limits, which are just described as 'fair use' in this case. It's also not an issue of speed, as users already pay more for a faster package, i.e. 60 Mbps costs more than 20 Mbps. Net neutrality is the principle that internet providers shouldn't prioritise one type of traffic over another. What ending net neutrality means is that your ISP can now charge you not just for bandwidth, but for what you use on the net. For example, you can now expect to see the following kinds of packages show up in addition to prices per bandwidth: - Basic web! $10/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter: $15/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix: $25/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix + 100ms ping for multiplayer games: $35/month
- Basic web + Facebook & twitter + Netflix + 25ms ping for multiplayer games: $55/month
Basically they can now charge you for how you use your bandwidth, not just what bandwidth you use. It's as if when buying fuel for your car they could sell you one type of fuel for personal use, and another more expensive sort of fuel if you want to use it for commuting to work.
They could also use this system to target things like illegal torrenting, as now they could attempt to kill both legal and illegal torrenting. I find it unlikely they will do that but will instead simple have a super package which enables torrenting for a silly amount of money. However torrenters always always get round roadblocks imposed on them.
I'm curious who you are talking about in reference to your first statement: "Using more of the bandwidth isn't really the issue. Most ISPs already give users a limit of how much bandwidth they can use in a given month. Normally if you go over this limit your speeds are throttled or you're cut off entirely. Even packages marketed as unlimited bandwidth have limits, which are just described as 'fair use' in this case. It's also not an issue of speed, as users already pay more for a faster package, i.e. 60 Mbps costs more than 20 Mbps." To whom are you referring as the "user"? Is it the end-user (me) or the content provider (Netflix)? There are 2 types of ISPs in the equation, the one that provides services to the content creators (Netflix/Facebook/Twitter/etc) and users/clients (me). And no... Your breakdown of how charges "might look" now that net neutrality are gone have been resoundingly refuted. First off, there's NO guarantee how much latency there are between various destination points. I'm not sure how much you really know about the US network infrastructure and how data centers are constructed or where they're located, but to be sure, you can't assure a set 25ms or 100ms "ping" for a customer. As someone with a degree in Computer Science-Network Engineering, and someone that competed on a semi and professional level (CPL-M) in various games using a variety of gaming servers, that's just not how shit works. First, your "guarantee" would be null and void if I was to use the west coast servers for my 1st person shooter or for my MMORPG, since I'm on the east coast. Secondly, NO ONE will pay for "Twitter/Facebook" use, the free market would walk away from those platforms. Why do you think those platforms are free to use? Because they offer no tangible service... There was a ton of market research done on those things a few years back, they only value they serve is for ad revenue, BECAUSE of free use. Finally, that's not what net neutrality was about. Ever wonder why the big content providers, the ones who use the most bandwidth, were in favor of net neutrality? Because Netflix wanted to be charged the same monthly as MomPopStreaming and Facebook wanted to pay the same monthly as MEWE, but the reality is, Netflix and Facebook use 1,000x more resources and bandwidth than those start ups. I've seen a ton of BS floating around on what NN really means, both in principle and how enacted. The whole "preference/throttling" argument is actually already a violation of USC, and was pointed out by a former FCC Chairman, which was promptly ignored by the major mainstream media outlets. Example? youtu.be/-Fyiv1LvR-A(it's also funny that the reporter in the above example doesn't know squat, and it's apparent, but attempts to argue his nonsensical points with the guy that's actually the SME on the topic, as if the reporter thinks he knows more on the topic) Here's the analogy. Is all food the same? All gas? What NN means is that it treats ALL internet traffic, irrespective of content/provider, as the same. Meaning, high bandwidth products are the same as free text transfer. This is to the benefit to the content providers that use or require high bandwidth products to create value or sell services. Netflix charges more money for HD and 4K products, why shouldn't the ISP that provides the backbone for the bandwidth for those products be able to charge more to Netflix to provide the pathway for those products? The ISP should be able to charge Netflix more for the higher bandwidth requirements, because it uses more resources. Under NN, the ISP that provides that bandwidth to Netflix, also provides bandwidth to the text chatroom IRC1. Under NN, that ISP charges Netflix and IRC1 the same monthly. That make sense to you?
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Post by iannewson on Jan 5, 2018 7:09:54 GMT
I'm curious who you are talking about in reference to your first statement: "Using more of the bandwidth isn't really the issue. Most ISPs already give users a limit of how much bandwidth they can use in a given month. Normally if you go over this limit your speeds are throttled or you're cut off entirely. Even packages marketed as unlimited bandwidth have limits, which are just described as 'fair use' in this case. It's also not an issue of speed, as users already pay more for a faster package, i.e. 60 Mbps costs more than 20 Mbps." To whom are you referring as the "user"? Is it the end-user (me) or the content provider (Netflix)? There are 2 types of ISPs in the equation, the one that provides services to the content creators (Netflix/Facebook/Twitter/etc) and users/clients (me). And no... Your breakdown of how charges "might look" now that net neutrality are gone have been resoundingly refuted. In my example yes I was referring to the end user, but yes the points also apply to the organisations serving the content. Yes, my examples simplified the possible situations. When VeriCom throttles Netflix unless Netflix pays extra for a direct connection, who do you think will end up paying for that burden? Will Netflix say "Clay's been really nice this year, so even though he uses VeriCom let's charge him a lower rate", or do you think those costs will be passed on to the consumer? The end result is Netflix via one ISP might charge a different rate to another ISP. First off, there's NO guarantee how much latency there are between various destination points. I'm not sure how much you really know about the US network infrastructure and how data centers are constructed or where they're located, but to be sure, you can't assure a set 25ms or 100ms "ping" for a customer. As someone with a degree in Computer Science-Network Engineering, and someone that competed on a semi and professional level (CPL-M) in various games using a variety of gaming servers, that's just not how shit works. First, your "guarantee" would be null and void if I was to use the west coast servers for my 1st person shooter or for my MMORPG, since I'm on the east coast. Secondly, NO ONE will pay for "Twitter/Facebook" use, the free market would walk away from those platforms. Why do you think those platforms are free to use? Because they offer no tangible service... There was a ton of market research done on those things a few years back, they only value they serve is for ad revenue, BECAUSE of free use. Of course there's no guarantee, but ISPs already charge you on this basis. You will have agreed to a package with your ISP which includes a promise of X Mbps. There is no way any ISP any guarantee that you will always get X Mbps but they do it anyway. There is no difference between this and guaranteeing a certain latency. However, getting rid of net neutrality makes the guarantee more likely since your ISP can now prioritise rich user A's traffic over poor user B's traffic. Content providers already get charged for giving you content via bandwidth charges. This is how I get charged. And Clay, you should know that using experience and degrees to make your point seem true is a logical fallacy. I have a good CS degree from a good university and am technical director of an internet software business. I would be extremely surprised if you knew more of the technical detail than me of how the internet works, but again that would be a logical fallacy if I attempted to use that to prove my point. Finally, that's not what net neutrality was about. Ever wonder why the big content providers, the ones who use the most bandwidth, were in favor of net neutrality? Because Netflix wanted to be charged the same monthly as MomPopStreaming and Facebook wanted to pay the same monthly as MEWE, but the reality is, Netflix and Facebook use 1,000x more resources and bandwidth than those start ups. I've seen a ton of BS floating around on what NN really means, both in principle and how enacted. The whole "preference/throttling" argument is actually already a violation of USC, and was pointed out by a former FCC Chairman, which was promptly ignored by the major mainstream media outlets. Example? youtu.be/-Fyiv1LvR-A(it's also funny that the reporter in the above example doesn't know squat, and it's apparent, but attempts to argue his nonsensical points with the guy that's actually the SME on the topic, as if the reporter thinks he knows more on the topic) Here's the analogy. Is all food the same? All gas? What NN means is that it treats ALL internet traffic, irrespective of content/provider, as the same. Meaning, high bandwidth products are the same as free text transfer. This is to the benefit to the content providers that use or require high bandwidth products to create value or sell services. Netflix charges more money for HD and 4K products, why shouldn't the ISP that provides the backbone for the bandwidth for those products be able to charge more to Netflix to provide the pathway for those products? The ISP should be able to charge Netflix more for the higher bandwidth requirements, because it uses more resources. Under NN, the ISP that provides that bandwidth to Netflix, also provides bandwidth to the text chatroom IRC1. Under NN, that ISP charges Netflix and IRC1 the same monthly. That make sense to you? So why shouldn't gas stations be able to charge you more if you drive on the highway as opposed to only locally? Why shouldn't a restaurant charge you more if you go there for a date and really enjoy it, as opposed to not enjoying the date?
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Post by clayk on Jan 8, 2018 15:10:17 GMT
I want to address each of your responses' points, so my BBCode quoting may be off, but hopefully it's readable. I'm curious who you are talking about in reference to your first statement: "Using more of the bandwidth isn't really the issue. Most ISPs already give users a limit of how much bandwidth they can use in a given month. Normally if you go over this limit your speeds are throttled or you're cut off entirely. Even packages marketed as unlimited bandwidth have limits, which are just described as 'fair use' in this case. It's also not an issue of speed, as users already pay more for a faster package, i.e. 60 Mbps costs more than 20 Mbps." To whom are you referring as the "user"? Is it the end-user (me) or the content provider (Netflix)? There are 2 types of ISPs in the equation, the one that provides services to the content creators (Netflix/Facebook/Twitter/etc) and users/clients (me). And no... Your breakdown of how charges "might look" now that net neutrality are gone have been resoundingly refuted. In my example yes I was referring to the end user, but yes the points also apply to the organisations serving the content. Yes, my examples simplified the possible situations. When VeriCom throttles Netflix unless Netflix pays extra for a direct connection, who do you think will end up paying for that burden? Will Netflix say "Clay's been really nice this year, so even though he uses VeriCom let's charge him a lower rate", or do you think those costs will be passed on to the consumer? The end result is Netflix via one ISP might charge a different rate to another ISP. Sure, those costs of doing business will most likely be passed along to the consumer, however, those content providers have literally been rolling in the dough (slang for money) since NN was enacted. In fact, the amount of money invested into infrastructure and technologies to facilitate the delivery of those products has stagnated since it's enactment. The companies knew they didn't have to put R&D resources into something, since the .gov was controlling the pipeline. This has been discussed, and is a cause for concern among those in the tech industry (more on that later). As for increasing the charges at the end user for specific services, no one will pay $10 extra a month for Twitter, it's simply not worth it. Now, will someone pay $5-10 more a month for Netflix, which provides a service? Maybe, maybe not. But, the low income family is not entitled to a video streaming service, period. There seems to be an awful lot of conflation on what people are entitled to and what they earn or procure. If NN raises costs so I can't afford Netflix, so be it. I'm not upper middle class anymore, since our household is single income now (wife isn't working her old full time job since the kids were born), so money is tight. Netflix isn't the only game in town either, I don't even have to subscribe to a streaming service, I could get cable TV or satellite (DirecTV) or no TV at all. I mean, what is the purpose of the internet for generally all users? Information sharing? Are you making the assertion that ISPs (at client and provider level) will throttle activity at the textual level (informational sites) across the board? I'm curious, how you arrive at this conclusion, considering that prior to NN being enacted, all these products and services (and demands) existed, yet none of these fears were even remotely realized before. First off, there's NO guarantee how much latency there are between various destination points. I'm not sure how much you really know about the US network infrastructure and how data centers are constructed or where they're located, but to be sure, you can't assure a set 25ms or 100ms "ping" for a customer. As someone with a degree in Computer Science-Network Engineering, and someone that competed on a semi and professional level (CPL-M) in various games using a variety of gaming servers, that's just not how shit works. First, your "guarantee" would be null and void if I was to use the west coast servers for my 1st person shooter or for my MMORPG, since I'm on the east coast. Secondly, NO ONE will pay for "Twitter/Facebook" use, the free market would walk away from those platforms. Why do you think those platforms are free to use? Because they offer no tangible service... There was a ton of market research done on those things a few years back, they only value they serve is for ad revenue, BECAUSE of free use. Of course there's no guarantee, but ISPs already charge you on this basis. You will have agreed to a package with your ISP which includes a promise of X Mbps. There is no way any ISP any guarantee that you will always get X Mbps but they do it anyway. There is no difference between this and guaranteeing a certain latency. However, getting rid of net neutrality makes the guarantee more likely since your ISP can now prioritise rich user A's traffic over poor user B's traffic. Content providers already get charged for giving you content via bandwidth charges. This is how I get charged. And Clay, you should know that using experience and degrees to make your point seem true is a logical fallacy. I have a good CS degree from a good university and am technical director of an internet software business. I would be extremely surprised if you knew more of the technical detail than me of how the internet works, but again that would be a logical fallacy if I attempted to use that to prove my point. I'm going to address the educational/experiential accusation first, since it's the most glaring issue, and it's the one that really irks me. I wasn't using the question as a petard with which to roast your viewpoint, I was simply asking how you arrived at the conclusions you did and educational/experiential background helps give me a frame of reference as to the how you arrive at that conclusion. Example/analogy, someone without any experience in vehicle maintenance or lifecycle sustainment attempts to relate subjects to me about a subject matter that I'm intimately familiar with, but lacks contextual relationships with which to intelligently converse on the topic at the detailed or expert level. Which is why I specifically asked "I'm not sure how much you really know about", as a means of giving you the open ground to explain YOUR point of view with background, so we could find common ground to have a conversation on the topic. I then proceeded to give my bonafides, so YOU could then frame YOUR responses with the knowledge of MY background. This is how informed discussion goes on topics at a detail level, otherwise, one or both parties have to rely on layman terms and converse at a 10,000 foot level. That is the ONLY reason that question/statement about "I'm not sure how much you really know about" came about. Regardless, while we may both have experience and education at the same level, you are not a continual user of the network backbone here in the US, and that is a key delineator in our conversation. At a theoretical level, we can talk detail, but in application level, you don't have that experience. The analogy would be, we can both talk about driving, as they are common to both our environments/countries, but I would not presume to tell you that traffic circles (which are more common across the pond) as if I were an authority on the subject, simply because I drove in Ireland once upon a time or because I drive here in the US all the time. Does that make sense? With that said, there is no guarantee at ISPs of latency, throughput, yes. I go through the process of shopping a new ISP every 6 months, or as things require. "Things" required that I do so this past week, because of some personal issues/challenges that required me shopping for a new ISP. ISPs will offer the packages as follows (or something similar): 10mb d/l, 50mb d/l, 300mb d/l. None of them claim a latency, nor do they ever really achieve those maxes, but the capability exists. Here's another funny thing for you, before NN was removed, all those plans except the "big dog" had a footnote in the services part that specifically spell out that "in times of great traffic, we reserve the right to balance the network through traffic throttling and priority". Oh, and that's not just limited to the cable or DSL or satellite ISP that's providing me home internet, but also on the cellular side. I shopped for various products and plans in November (that's before NN was dropped) and that's exactly what Verizon told me, and they have it on their website. There's 2 packages, "Freedom" and "Freedom Plus", want to guess what the difference is? In case you need help, one gets network priority on ALL traffic and the other still receives the traffic, but it's not prioritized. Want to know what happens if I paid for just the "Freedom" plan but got none of my traffic? I'd find another provider, or go without. Having a cell phone (or an internet line in my home) is NOT a fundamental right. Make no bones about it, it's the providers that build the highways that the information travels on, and they can and do treat it like a toll road. You can ride on the free lanes, but there's going to be congestion and maybe the speed limit is lower (55 mph). You can use your EZ-Pass (or FastPass) and ride on the HOV side that has less traffic and roll at 70 mph, but it will cost you. Oh, and that's also an allegory to actual highways/interstates here in the US, specifically here in VA. Oh, I should also mention that my tax dollars went to build that HOV express lanes, but also some funding from private entities/investors, and those rates they charge? They change based on the traffic on those express lanes. More traffic? That 10 mile stretch might be $35.00 dollars. No/low traffic? It's $2.65. Now imagine it was ONLY private companies that built that road/express lane? They can, and should be able to, charge whatever they want. It's their product, that you're using. If it's not worth buying, people won't pay for it, the market will adjust accordingly. Finally, that's not what net neutrality was about. Ever wonder why the big content providers, the ones who use the most bandwidth, were in favor of net neutrality? Because Netflix wanted to be charged the same monthly as MomPopStreaming and Facebook wanted to pay the same monthly as MEWE, but the reality is, Netflix and Facebook use 1,000x more resources and bandwidth than those start ups. I've seen a ton of BS floating around on what NN really means, both in principle and how enacted. The whole "preference/throttling" argument is actually already a violation of USC, and was pointed out by a former FCC Chairman, which was promptly ignored by the major mainstream media outlets. Example? youtu.be/-Fyiv1LvR-A(it's also funny that the reporter in the above example doesn't know squat, and it's apparent, but attempts to argue his nonsensical points with the guy that's actually the SME on the topic, as if the reporter thinks he knows more on the topic) Here's the analogy. Is all food the same? All gas? What NN means is that it treats ALL internet traffic, irrespective of content/provider, as the same. Meaning, high bandwidth products are the same as free text transfer. This is to the benefit to the content providers that use or require high bandwidth products to create value or sell services. Netflix charges more money for HD and 4K products, why shouldn't the ISP that provides the backbone for the bandwidth for those products be able to charge more to Netflix to provide the pathway for those products? The ISP should be able to charge Netflix more for the higher bandwidth requirements, because it uses more resources. Under NN, the ISP that provides that bandwidth to Netflix, also provides bandwidth to the text chatroom IRC1. Under NN, that ISP charges Netflix and IRC1 the same monthly. That make sense to you? So why shouldn't gas stations be able to charge you more if you drive on the highway as opposed to only locally? Why shouldn't a restaurant charge you more if you go there for a date and really enjoy it, as opposed to not enjoying the date? You conflated my examples, not sure if on purpose or accidentally. Gas stations charge different rates for different qualities of gas. Here in the US, I have between 2 and 6 choices at the pump when I fill up my car/truck. I can get the ethanol free gas (old school stuff), 87 octane, 89 octane, 91 octane (some places offer 92 or 93 octane), etc. The gas station IS effectively charging me more for a better product of gas that I put in my vehicle. However, the highways are paid for from my taxes, and the internet backbone is NOT. Restaurants charge more, based on the quality of their food. You are missing the example, in that the analogy would be with Restaurant Neutrality, every restaurant charges the same, whether you're getting a 26oz Ribeye or a McDouble.
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